no "Ready"

[leonard]

Jun 9, 2014 13:00:21 GMT -5 PinArm said:

Hi Leonard,

I want to comment on your alphabetically bulleted points:

a. I am assuming that we are all on the same page in that it is FALSE STARTING that we are trying to fix. I don't think that it is unfixable. Other sports such as swimming and track have fixed it. Perhaps we have technological and funding challenges that those other sports don't face; however, we can still work together to address this common issue and attempt solutions that are within our technological and funding limits.

b. Leonard, come on man, "everything" you are "going to try has been done"? Firstly, who is YOU? Jeff Miller? Canada? All individual Canadians? All individual armwrestlers in the world? I don't think that any human can say that forever in time all of humanity will not think of a solution to false starting in armwrestling.

I would love to hear about the light and audible signal (like track races) being used. In what ways were those start methodologies dismal failures? Are there videos so that I can see what was going on? I mean this seriously and sincerely, I know that on the web, that is sometimes not the case.

c and d. If lip reading is an example of a new problem or a "way around" a fair start, then I ask what difference it makes. Competitors can read lips right now to determine when the GO is coming.

The solution to false starts are simple, alter the cadence and be willing to call false starts. Other than that short of investing lots of cash in some kind of start system, it comes down to humans and human error.
Now that I think about it the solution to false starts is to make sure you are also right on the edge.
I was as slow as the heavyweights pulling the 175 class. What did I do......I started anticipating the go and became as fast as anyone.
Bells, whistles, changing the wording, using just one word, heck there was an association that did double go's to prevent flash pins.
Your solution of just an simple "GO" was used and abandoned because it caused more harm than good.
Have I missed any solution proposed?

[Jeff Miller]

Your solution of just an simple "GO" was used and abandoned because it caused more harm than good.

Can you please elaborate Leonard?

The solution to false starts are simple, alter the cadence and be willing to call false starts. Other than that short of investing lots of cash in some kind of start system, it comes down to humans and human error.

Makes sense.

Now that I think about it the solution to false starts is to make sure you are also right on the edge.
I was as slow as the heavyweights pulling the 175 class. What did I do......I started anticipating the go and became as fast as anyone.

I don't understand this "solution" (to false starts). What do you mean by this?

Have I missed any solution proposed?

Maybe, have people tried the light signal? Also, that you know of have people used a touch-sensory signal (ie refs making contact with competitors hands, and then releasing, without any "GO" given...this was my idea and I'm curious if it's been done before.

[leonard]

Jun 9, 2014 15:41:41 GMT -5 Jeff Miller said:

Your solution of just an simple "GO" was used and abandoned because it caused more harm than good.

Can you please elaborate Leonard?

The solution to false starts are simple, alter the cadence and be willing to call false starts. Other than that short of investing lots of cash in some kind of start system, it comes down to humans and human error.

Makes sense.

Now that I think about it the solution to false starts is to make sure you are also right on the edge.
I was as slow as the heavyweights pulling the 175 class. What did I do......I started anticipating the go and became as fast as anyone.

I don't understand this "solution" (to false starts). What do you mean by this?

Have I missed any solution proposed?

Maybe, have people tried the light signal? Also, that you know of have people used a touch-sensory signal (ie refs making contact with competitors hands, and then releasing, without any "GO" given...this was my idea and I'm curious if it's been done before.

I can't incorporate each individually so here go's.

The United States Armwrestling Association, which I am the president, used this start system for many years. The problem with it is that when all of your pullers get used to this start system and then go to the states or to the WAF World Championship.......they will not get good starts.
This is not speculation, we lived it and changed our starts. We did not do this because the ready go was better but because we were putting our pullers at an disadvantage when they went to other big shows.

As for anticipating the go......you are timing the start based on how the refetheree starts. When I went to an event, I would write down the cadence of each referee so that I knew how to time it. Most react to sound and I would anticipate the start therefor getting good starts.
the hardest was the ones that altered his cadence and you then had to resort to lip reading.

There were a couple of associations that used lights to signal the start like a drag race start with red, yellow and then green and it came down to determining with human error on if they started before the green or not.

As for the touch signal when we used the simple go we removed the hand on top at the same time for a visual start in addition to the verbal go.
again it comes down to doing something that isn't accepted in the other events around the world. Great if you never leave your Provence but bad if you want to pull out side your area.

[John Milne]

I don't feel that many care about WAF

That direction is dying in my opinion.

Let's do what's right for us here.

[leonard]

Jun 9, 2014 17:30:02 GMT -5 John Milne said:

I don't feel that many care about WAF

That direction is dying in my opinion.

Let's do what's right for us here.

So your saying that Canadians are not going to leave the country?
WAF is not the only consideration.
PAL, Arm Wars, A1, Top 16, and any events in the US.
Hey do as you wish, I am giving my opinion based on pulling and promoting
for 36 years.

[John Milne]

Jun 9, 2014 23:54:05 GMT -5 leonard said:

Jun 9, 2014 17:30:02 GMT -5 John Milne said:

I don't feel that many care about WAF

That direction is dying in my opinion.

Let's do what's right for us here.

So your saying that Canadians are not going to leave the country?
WAF is not the only consideration.
PAL, Arm Wars, A1, Top 16, and any events in the US.
Hey do as you wish, I am giving my opinion based on pulling and promoting
for 36 years.

Is that honestly what you drew from my statement? (Canadians will not leave the country)

I'm saying WAF is dying imo. To align armwrestling with WAF is a mistake. It was basically a response to your statement that athletes will not get good starts at WAF because they won't be used to it.

I think Canadians are leaving the country more and more often. WAL, ARM WARS, UAL, etc all have more drawing power than WAF at the moment and are getting Canadians to travel more often.

We're versatile. We can get used to the different starts of the different leagues very easily. I think your assumption is either incorrect or perhaps used as an excuse by athletes who perform poorly. This was evident from the Canadian content at the most recent WAL event in Vegas. It was a new start system for all of us and we performed fantastically. It's a mental preparation and focus more than a leaned response.

[leonard]

Jun 10, 2014 8:35:54 GMT -5 John Milne said:

Jun 9, 2014 23:54:05 GMT -5 leonard said:

So your saying that Canadians are not going to leave the country?
WAF is not the only consideration.
PAL, Arm Wars, A1, Top 16, and any events in the US.
Hey do as you wish, I am giving my opinion based on pulling and promoting
for 36 years.

Is that honestly what you drew from my statement? (Canadians will not leave the country)

I'm saying WAF is dying imo. To align armwrestling with WAF is a mistake. It was basically a response to your statement that athletes will not get good starts at WAF because they won't be used to it.

I think Canadians are leaving the country more and more often. WAL, ARM WARS, UAL, etc all have more drawing power than WAF at the moment and are getting Canadians to travel more often.

We're versatile. We can get used to the different starts of the different leagues very easily. I think your assumption is either incorrect or perhaps used as an excuse by athletes who perform poorly. This was evident from the Canadian content at the most recent WAL event in Vegas. It was a new start system for all of us and we performed fantastically. It's a mental preparation and focus more than a leaned response.

I don't know why you are so focused on WAF, there is a huge difference between using a don't move go, which they used as fast as possible, and going to just a "GO". That is a huge difference not to mention the other events that use a standard ready go.
Now you can tout the versatility of Canadians but the impact of changing your starts to a simple go will not be evident for a couple years.
Again I am not speculating but have lived it.

[PinArm]

John Milne, you are speaking for the majority of knowledgeable Canadian armwrestlers (IMO), thanks!

Leonard, you are a very senior and very GOOD ref. So is Rick Pinkney. Even you two have each described how you anticipate the GO or how you train new armwrestlers to do the same thing (by hitting on the Ready, for example). It is time for a change in how we handle starts when the two leading refs in North America are not encouraging hitting on GO (but instead hitting on a lip movement or "timing" the GO from the READY).

When matches actually start with two pullers hitting at the same time, it is AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The explosive, powerful hit often wins; but even if not, it is great to see and KNOW that it was not early - it was just fast and hard. When you see two guys trying to find that certain amount of cheating that the ref won't (or can't) call, and one edges out the other guy ... it sucks. Even if there is an explosive start, it winds up being dissatisfying to watch because it is hard to tell how much of its success is due to the force of the hit and how much is due to the greater amount of cheating.

An example is in the GOA finals when Luke lost to Cobra. Cobra had gone early and that irritated Luke. Instead of sulking, though, Luke got mentally tough and simply hit earlier. Cobra complained about the early starts that gave Luke two wins. I use this example because it is a popular frame of reference. In those three matches, all we got to see was how important it is to cheat the GO more than your opponent. I would have loved to have seen them both hit simultaneously and so who wins a real match!

[PinArm]

Leonard, I like your personal story. I am certainly not known for my flash hits! LOL, maybe I am more of a heavyweight hitter in the lightweight class.

However, if I miss a GO, or if I am slow, or if I hit in the wrong direction - that is on ME. I can live with that.

I think that unfairness is worse than poor personal preparation or performance. If refs slur together the ReadyGO ... ReaGO ... that does help me (assuming that I am willing to cheat to win) because I may not be the fastest hitter, but I can get away with pulling into the GO. I know that just GO will be tough on me and slow hitters. However, it will also be hard on cheaters. I hope that it is a wash, that favours only the fast and strong hitters.

[Jeff Miller]

An example is in the GOA finals when Luke lost to Cobra. Cobra had gone early and that irritated Luke. Instead of sulking, though, Luke got mentally tough and simply hit earlier. Cobra complained about the early starts that gave Luke two wins. I use this example because it is a popular frame of reference. In those three matches, all we got to see was how important it is to cheat the GO more than your opponent. I would have loved to have seen them both hit simultaneously and so who wins a real match!

^ I agree.