Elbow goes out of pad or arm raises = FOUL

[PinArm]

While I respect those who think that some "hops" might be OK, that is nuts!

While I like progressive thinking, this one is crazy!

I have seen refs (including master refs at Worlds) lose count of the fouls and warnings. It would be hilarious to imagine what a local ref is thinking: was that elbow lift a "foul" or was that lift just a little hop? Is that one hop and a warning from a false start and the other guy has a foul from three hops before that last restart and does the other guy already have a "hop", yeah, I think so, and his hop was a big one, so I'm not calling this one. Right!

There are tons of elbow fouls not called. All of them should be called (like the finals at Worlds this year).

Discretion as to the magnitude or effect of an elbow infraction should not be left with the ref. That would only invite more "errors" (or perceived inequality in the application of discretion). If the elbow leaves the confines of the pad or the arm raises off the pad altogether then it is a foul. Don't do that - seems simple.

Although it is not nice to see a great match-up or great match end in fouls, adding discretion for the refs is not the solution. Competitors elbow foul, intentionally and accidentally; however, in either case, it is to gain an advantage (or at least the effect is to gain an advantage). This is a sport of leverage and even a millimeter will make a difference. A ref can see one millimeter (i.e. there is light under the elbow) but can not see the difference between 3 and 4 millimeters.

I want the sport to be strong, with perceived fairness by competitors and by fans who don't compete. Allowing running fouls and elbow hops would hurt this.

Even if there were merits to allowing hops, which I believe there are (in excitement), those merits are outweighed by the difficulty in reffing the hops.

There is a benefit to matching the WAF rule, so that the sport has a dominant set of rules that we (and maybe even, one day, the public) can understand.

[Jeff Miller]

Good points Gord, thanks for chiming in.

[Windover]

Although I agree in theory with you Gord, I dont in practicality. I have heard as I can imagine you have, the non armwreslter who was excited about a match that stopped because of these micro fouls, that he could not see, and see the disappointment on his face over a great match stopped. I can count on two hands how many elbow fouls I have gotten so its not going to benefit me. But I have been hit by the opponent fouling slightly when I had good position that stopped the match. I can also say I dont think I have ever lost a match due to a micro elbow foul. I got beat. Off the side or back yes, but not a hop.
Anyways, your voice is necessary to gain the overall feeling of everyone. I am sure there are many who feel as you do and we need to get all the info we can. No one wants to bully things in, but get a great consensus. It is tough when all do not add to the pot. Thanks

[PinArm]

Hi Guy,

If the rule is changed, then the fans would simply be upset when the elbow lifts too high instead of lifted at all.

Competitors will flirt with the limit and cross it often.

The vagueness of any rule other than the current rule will encourage more breaking of the rule and exasperate the situation that you are trying to avoid.

[Ashley Maher]

I agree with you Gord, there would be too much grey if this is voted in. It would be interpreted differently be each ref and not consistent making it difficult to regulate.

I think that allowing "elbow pops" would be a huge mistake.

[Windover]

Playing devils advocate: as I agree in part with your argument, I would bet if a test was done, if someone was trying to abuse elbow fouling, they could not short hop but would make it incredibly noticable. Why do I think this way? Because it is a foul now and most matches have MANY missed by even the most scrutinizing referees. But when they are called it kills a sometimes great match? What if it was at least tried??? We can always switch back. But personally I quit watching worlds finals when the calls became the show and not the arm wrestling as with almost every year!

[Eric Roussin]

This issue's a tough one for me. Better elbow pads should reduce the number of hops, but's easier/quicker to change a rule than it is to change equipment.

However, I think the benefits of seeing more matches end in pins outweigh the potential for increased controversy due to missed elbow foul calls.

[Pat Rehill]

I think we should leave the rule as is and change the pads to reduce elbow fouls, I realize this will take some time but I believe it is the best way to go.

[Mr. Espey]

Keep in mind that several organizations are doing this, particularly in the supermatch format, and it is working out for the better. Why was it that my last supermatch there were small elbow hops allowed as long as no advantage was gained? No spectator wants to see a match finish without there being an actual match.

[Andrew Grant]

I think we could develop a running foul system that would keep everyone happy. We need to keeps things fair by punishing infractions and keep things interesting by not ever stopping a match before a pin occurs.